Man City fans relish the bitterness of their critics in a post-Treble Mailbox. Also: evidence that sportswashing works; and has there been a fall from grace more rapid than Romelu Lukaku’s?
Get your views in to theeditor@football365.com…
Lukaku’s fall
After watching not just his Champions League Final performance but the majority since his final season at Inter Milan before that huge big money move to Chelsea in 2021, i pose this question has there ever been a striker to have fallen off so quickly and so dramatically as Romelu Lukaku since he left Inter Milan in 2021?
Maybe Radamel Falcao or Fernando Torres would be thrown into the debate, but both actually suffered huge injuries and that should be taken into consideration, as well as the fact they did go on to play roles in their clubs successes, an example being Torres vs Barcelona and also in Chelsea’s 2012/13 Europa League triumph.
The Admin @ At The Bridge Pod
Sportwashing works
Nick Harris pointed out on Twitter that in five and half hours of UCL Final coverage, BT Sport never mentioned the charges hanging over Manchester City’s head and season, and I had to laugh because that was what NBC’s World Cup coverage was like in the US. And I may only be an adopted Geordie, but I can assure you that the local coverage of Newcastle United is overflowing with kind words for the ownership. It’s largely directed at Amanda Staveley, who is, cough, agreeably white and — it must be admitted — is doing everything right from the point of view of the club and the city.
I used to think that sportswashing didn’t work, because we’re still talking about it. But it does work, and this is how. As far as the people of Newcastle (and other such clubs’ cities) are concerned, the Saudis never did anything to them, and they came bearing gifts. PIF is actually investing in Newcastle itself, and the extra money they’re spending on the club’s infrastructure, staff, and amenities is largely going to local businesses. As far as NBC is concerned, the last thing they want to do is provide another reason for Americans to hate soccer or to not watch a product the rights for which cost a lot of money. The latter goes for BT Sport, too. And as for the sports journalists covering the events, few are likely to risk their up-close access and prime accommodations by being rude to their hosts on television. Money, prestige and access are the ingredients of sportswashing, and the Saudis and their ilk have the money to buy prestige and, thus, the right to broker access.
Perhaps German or French television does a good job of presenting these issues, but I suspect that the BBC/ITV presentation of the WC was something like unique in the English-speaking world. They should probably get more credit for that.
Chris C, Toon Army DC
No drama
In 1999 Manchester Utd managed to win the title by a single point on the last day, coming from behind to win, overcoming the defending champions after a tumultuous campaign. Four points between first and third.
We don’t have to discuss the drama of the FA Cup run and the contributions of Bergkamp and Giggs to that maelstrom of emotion.
The final against Bayern was as frantic a finish as could be hoped for, those two late goals guaranteeing that final and the overall achievement a place in sporting folklore forever.
It’s been mentioned before about the bland and contrived corporate nature of Manchester City’s success this season and there’s been mention of their treble haul as not carrying the same weight of passion or soul as their neighbours achievements as outlined above.
I would agree. That’s because there was a sense of crushing inevitability about Man City winning. There was no drama. None.
Is that the fault of Pep or the players? No.
Should it take away from their achievements? No.
Does it mean the rest of us are obliged to be excited about it and bestow the same admiration and legendary status, begrudging as it may be, to this treble haul? Once again, no.
Just as those who believe that football began in 1992 and try to market “Aguerooooo” as the closest and best title finish ever are wrong,
the lack of jeopardy when Man City take the field this season means that there was never going to be the same emotional reward for what they’ve achieved so it will never be held in the same regard as those of 1999.
That and the not insignificant matter of 115 outstanding charges of impropriety.
Eoin (“charging through the midfield, Thomas, it’s up for grabs now”) Ireland
A victory for all UAE
Congrats to the UAE, their shrewd investment has delivered the European champions league to the Middle East. City are a great team, with probably the greatest manager in terms of innovation, but they are a vessel, kept afloat by false sponsorships and unfairly bankrolled by a very rich nation. Yes, other clubs have foreign owners but those owners bought into clubs (not Chelsea obvs!) deeply rooted in England’s football heritage who are able to command real world sponsorships. I know city have a distant heritage of their own, but they were not up and coming when they were sold to the UAE, they were basically Bolton and there is no way they could have adhered to FFP in the ensuing years. Like Chelsea before them, it just feels a bit plastic to the outsider, but I’m sure it’s a hell of a ride if you had a Shaun Goater poster on your wall.
The UAE also have a cycling team, one which boasts the best rider in the world hotly tipped to win the Tour de France for the third time – yet you never hear anything along the lines of the criticism that City face, not these days at least. Cycling arguably offers far greater exposure than City ever could – with the ‘brand’ front of face 4 hours a day 6 days a week for 4 weeks. Money talks louder in cycling, most teams are relatively fledgling and buying the talent is commonplace so there probably isn’t the same level of distrust that we see in football. It’s probably fair to say there are other, more worrisome, ‘cheat’ factors in play as well. But the riders are just seen as exactly that and not questioned on who they represent or take money from. Wear the shirt, ride the bike, take the money. Cycling is a team sport yet the individuals are lauded, the team is just a background prop.
Totally different to football in that respect but the underlying issue of sportswashing remains. I could not stand Fergie’s success, but the football in the late nineties was often scintillating. Same with Wengers Arsenal – you had to sit back and marvel. There was no baggage, just annoyingly good football. Chelsea was baggage, City is baggage.
Just rambling really. I think deep down I am pleased for Pep, the English players and the city fans – I just wish they would acknowledge the dodgy regime and the fact that the money they have spent is suspect to all but those with blue tinted glasses.
Tom, sunny smallton
…Football has always had wealth discrepancies, but companies and wealthy individuals are constrained by the fact that they are private enterprises. They can’t take a loan from the IMF, they can’t lease/sell land access or land rights. They can’t borrow against the future productivity of its population. The economic scale that corporations and individuals operate on is dwarfed by the economic scale of nation states.
Google, for example, is the 4th largest company in the world. The company debt of Google is 6 Billion dollars.
The UAE is not even in the top 20 largest countries by GDP. Its GDP is less than the Philippines and South Africa. But the Gross National Debt of the UAE is estimated to be 415 billion dollars. And the UAE is considered “rich”, right?
Opening ownership up to nation states severely distorts competition because the difference in scale we’re talking about is in orders of magnitude. Funding Manchester City OF COURSE has come at a cost to the UAE. But it’s the kind of relatively small cost that nation states can easily bear. And worse, in a non-democratic country, the population has zero input into whether they bear it or not.
Are we willing to open the door completely? To allow the investment arms of Malaysia, or Angola, or the Netherlands to own clubs? If not, what’s the argument for allowing only some nation states to own clubs and not others? But if this is allowed more generally, it would probably be the end of the modern game as we know it.
It should never have been allowed in the first place. This isn’t coming from a “jealous fan.” This is coming from a romantic who has always enjoyed football for emotions and stories it provides. But these only exist when there is some semblance of fair competition. I won’t begrudge a City fan their enjoyment of success, but surely any rational person can see that this state of affairs is neither tenable nor desirable.
André E
Best ever season
It’s sad to see your otherwise entertaining mb become a sluice for a river of tears from certain fans: Big club Karens who confuse bitter entitlement with having something worth saying.
Honestly, we all should be terrified about the general authoritarian take over of our lives. Money often trumps talent but- I think we agree – in football you need enough money and the right talent properly managed.
However, dear friend i’m here to chat footy; to offer a list of the 6 greatest seasons ever, in England.
I’ve used trophy value, historical achievement, firsts and just generally how good/ dominant they were to decide. It might surprise you!
5= Ars 03/04 and Man City 17/18
I know, more points, more goals, more records and the first century … but that unbeaten thing just feels big.
4– Man City 18/19
Four first class trophies, the first domestic treble ever, 98pts and the all time all comps goals record. Phenomenal.
3– Man utd 98/99
The first ‘proper’ treble and…er… that’s it. Sqeaked the league by a point and a fortunate injury time leaves the possibility it was more a fluke than an achievement but very good all the same.
2– Liv 83/84
Actually the first English treble, completed their 3peat and a record 4th LC in a row; that’s dominance!
1– Man City 22/23
Treble, 3peat, record breaking CF, beating the best: Real, Bayern, Arsenal and United- after 13 seconds of our first cup final together! Just wow. More mint than trebor.
Honourable mentions to Liv 76/77 **Man Utd 07/08: Lge, CL, CSh = high value silver.
Man Utd 08/09: the first time four first class trophies were won and a 3peat.
PNE 1888/89
Like what? First league title, first double, first unbeaten league season, first invincible in all comps, first clean sweep, dominance supreme.
Their cross season unbeaten run (Lge) only ran to 21 games though and it does seem like they managed to ship in some of the country’s best players to help so…er…mmm…
Big love beautiful humans
Hartley MCFC, Somerset
Salty Sunday mailbox
City fan here. Inevitably, there were only going to be two versions of the Sunday morning mailbox.
City win? Pearl-clutching and hand-wringing extremes from the, ostensibly, morally superior supporters of the Old Guard. (And so it proved). Said hands drenched in bitter, salty tears. Not a ‘real’ treble anyway. Only won because City had/has squillions to spend.
City lose? Bottle jobs. Fraudiola. Flat-track bullies. They’ll never be invincibles nor match United’s treble-winning season. Just goes to show that, even though you have squillions to spend, you can’t just buy your way to glory.
Damned if you do and all that. But for those clamouring to ‘take our football back’ I would say this. Wave a magic wand and relegate Manchester City Football Club to the National League tomorrow. Who becomes ‘Top Dog’ in the Prem after that? Which PL clubs would have the most money to spend? How many PL clubs could afford to buy any of the existing City squad? Potentially Newcastle aside, there’s (currently) only one. And just how much fairer would the PL be after that?
Oh, and for the ‘115-ers’. It is anticipated that it will take the independent commission appointed to investigate the alleged FFP charges 3-4 years to reach their conclusions and their suggested sanctions (if any). PL lose their case? They will appeal. City lose their case? They will appeal. Get the point?
And for those that INSIST on moaning about MCFC obfuscating or ‘dragging out’ the legal process, then you are someone who has either never had to hire a lawyer or just don’t understand their core function. It is their raison d’etre to find any legal loophole or relevant precedent to establish that their client’s case is the right one and that the opposition’s case should be dismissed. It is precisely why you pay for the best you can get.
Even if the independent commission decides on points deductions, transfer bans and even relegation all at the same time, the chances of the existing titles being revoked are nil. See precedent set with Rangers. The consequences of upgrading every teams finishing places since 2008 would not only cost the PL an absolute fortune it would also, necessarily, mean it would be mired in legal disputes forever. “If City weren’t first, we wouldn’t have been relegated/We would’ve made top 6/top4 etc”. Not to mention every PL club then demanding the extra payments due to them had they all finished one place above what history currently records.
Anyway, thank you to Professor (Dr) David Achanfuo Yeboah for a rare, balanced Mail which typifies the best kind of input I think most of us expect on F365. As for Garey Vance? Shame on you Old Son. Have followed your mails quite keenly and pretty much agree with the vast majority. Thought you were better than that.
Oh, and has anybody seen William of Leicester or, as I like to call him, ‘Little Willie’?
Mark (Can’t wait for the fallout if Sheikh Jassim buys United). MCFC.
…I awoke this morning still drunk from last night and read all the bitter, ‘s’not fair’ ‘means nothing’, ‘oil cheats’, ‘no fans’, ‘fake club’ comments in the mailbox.
Thanks to each and everyone who contributed, just when I thought I’d wrung every last drop of pleasure from last night you have made me enjoy the occasion even more.
MCFC TREBLE WINNERS 2023!
Michael The Bert
…Oh, I’m absolutely loving this. After a mental night in Manchester, I wake up to find the Mailbox in a state of righteous fury after reading weeks of letter’s telling us how much they didn’t care!
Dry those bitter, bitter, salty tears…..and here’s to next season, huh?
Altogether now ‘RODRI’S ON FIRE…”
Not even trying help today
Levenshulme Blue, Manchester 19
…I’d like to thank everyone who wrote into Sunday morning’s mailbox, in what must be the most vitriolic vomiting of incandescent rage ever on these pages, for taking the time and effort to carefully articulate how little they care.
Steve MCFC
…Wow, last night’s mailbox must be one of the saltiest on record, even by f365 standards. Who knew fans of other clubs didn’t like another club winning? And not a net spender in sight! Special mention has to go to Eamonn from Dublin with his Guardiola has to win it at Spurs, Seville nonsense. You completely miss the point, or maybe that is
the point?
To be fair he’s probably tired from playing Citeh bingo all night.
Yours,
A fan from 1978.
…Well done city. Ahead of the inevitable emails, please don’t start comparing trebles. We don’t need another Messi v Ronaldo debate.
All of them are good and every team that has done it (Bayern, Barca, Inter, Man City and Man City) deserve immense credit.
I said they can be bottled, which is true. It’s also true that they all equally fantastic achievements.
Tom.
…Dearest Mailbox. You do not speak for me, I care about city’s win even though I don’t support them.
An entire mailbox denigrating city’s win on the morning after is pretty low. An entire mailbox who did nothing else on Saturday night rather than concoct lengthy emails about why they hate success.
I guess no emails from city fans as they’re still deservedly celebrating but I just want the world to know that we’re not all bitter and twisted about success in the mailbox.
Some of us give credit where credit is due so well done city, you showed us all what success looks like.
Please continue to boil the piss of the mailbox.
Fat Man (I cheer all British and Irish teams in Europe and world cups)
…Wading through all the didn’t really count, don’t care, my treble was better than your treble (really how old are we on this one), it’s not particularly hard to see through all the jealously. Football ultimately has changed, Fergie wouldn’t be able to lay a finger on this side without a similar investment. Klopp needed the world’s most expensive defender and goalkeeper before he turned Liverpool into winners. Sustained excellence nowadays requires significant investment.
James, Notts
Ps, something in United fans decrying City’s support as plastic while also proclaiming their investment is more moral because they sell a lot of branded noodles in Asia.
…Whew…there’s more salt on these pages today from United fans than there is in a packet of discos.
Firstly name me a team who doesn’t buy a title? Everyone does. Even supposed small teams like Leicester or Blackburn both spent more than ever in their history to win one title a piece.
But but but the class of 93′ shows that… Shut up. the class of 93 would have won jack shit if it didn’t have an experienced spine of players all BOUGHT from somewhere else. All the key players across the field in United’s greatest sides were bought often for record fees. So if anything united was the original plastic treble.
My argument is this? Who cares. Y’all make it sound like what pep has done is easy. Easi-er than winning it with Brentford but it’s not easy. infinite money cheat? United have been using that code for 10 years and have one minor trophy to show for it. So if infinite money makes it easy why are united failing? Because it isn’t easy.
Trust me I spent two years calling Pep a chequebook manager until I started actually watching city and realised the right person buying the right players for the right system at the right time using them in the right way is why they win.
How many times did United dominate the league with no striker? Nobody ever did that.
Stop being such bitter reds and give credit where it’s due.
Also if you go back enough you’ll see United were born as the ‘moneybags’ club. It was literally their nickname because they outspent EVERYONE and it’s been suggested they were fiddling the books doing it. They’re also the only team in premier League history (with Liverpool sadly) to have actually been caught and punished for match fixing.
Just say congratulations and let them have their day. Nobody has moral high ground here.
Lee
…Of all the arguments (pro & anti) about the validity of Manchester City’s trophies, the one I find weirdest is the view espoused by Cal Loftus….the gist being ‘I’ve been a fan since we were shit, been going X years, have seen a lot of dross, this is payback’. I get why you’d feel that as an individual, but as an argument to justify why it’s right, so what? There are millions of football fans worldwide who support clubs who have never and will never ‘achieve’ what City have done, have endured endless such dross, failure, and disappointment, and have never won anything. What makes your particular brand of unhappiness at how shit your club was in the past special? You welcomed not one, but two, autocractic, democracy denying, human rights abusing owners in the last 15yrs, and still can’t shake your sense of pity. Tragic.
Dan, Manchester
Pep s*** on Fergie – twice
I have a lot of thoughts about the whole Manchester City legacy topic, but I think I’ll save most of them for the time being. In the meantime, quick question:
If Fergie “sh*ts on” Pep, why did the 2009 and 2011 Champions League finals turn out the way they did?
Oliver Dziggel, Geneva Switzerland
…Coming back to Eamonn, Dublin on Fergie. Much of what he said was true but it needs to be put into context. Fergie’s achievements were incredible. But football them was different. Saying that he “Beat the Old Firm to the Scottish title two years in a row” isn’t really accurate. Firstly, he won 3 titles at Aberdeen. But he was never really having to beat Rangers. In those 3 seasons, Rangers finished 4th, 4th and 5th. They just were not a force. It was Dundee United that was the other competitive team, who beat Aberdeen (and Celtic) to the title in 1983. It was possible for non-old firm teams to win the league in the 80s. It’s not now. Money has changed the game in such a way, doing what Fegie did just isn’t possible.
Europe is similar. Yes, Fergie’s achievements were amazing. Winning the Cup Winners Cup and beating Bayern and Madrid was sensational. But Europe was different then. Dundee United reached the European Cup semi finals in 1984. They won the first leg 2-0 but lost 3-2 on aggregate. They were also Uefa cup runners up in 1987, beating Barcelona home and away. These results happened back then. They were possible. Now they’re not. The greatest manager in the world could not take over Aberdeen now and be successful in Europe.
It’s pointless to criticise Pep for not doing something that is no longer possible. Pep didn’t need to start at a lower team, because he impressed Barcelona so much as the B-team manager. He started straight at the top and has been successful ever since. Why criticise that?
I’m not saying he’s better than Fergusson. I’m saying comparisons luke that are pointless. Different eras, different football. They are both legends. We don’t have to say who is best.
Mike, LFC, London
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